About insecurity, insecurities, and self-esteem (or lack of)
We often either say that Ron is deeply insecure, either that he has some insecurities – as if it were the same thing.
In a way, it is.
But I think we should make a difference between the terms.
Some might roll their eyes at me and gruff, or raise their eyebrows with a smirk. I know, I’m really barmy, aren’t I ?
Here is the definition of insecurity : “uncertainty or anxiety about oneself; lack of confidence.”
The thing is, people can be insecure about a lot of things concerning themselves.
I think that we should distinguish those who are unsure about some things, that I’d call insecurities, and a sense of insecurity running deeper and concerning oneself in general.
Realistically speaking, most people have insecurities. It’s what makes us humans, with our weaknesses and vulnerabilities. They are linked to subjects we would like to avoid, some things we’d rather not think about, memories we would like not to dwell on.
It’s quite different to feel permanently insecure. Because it really undermines your sense of self, your vision of your abilities and of your own worth. It can be crippling. It’s horrible. It can even be dangerous (how many insecure people cut themselves or committed suicide over the years ?)
That’s a difference we find in the Harry Potter series.
I would say that nearly every single well-developped character (well, I don’t know much about Florian Fortescue) in the series has insecurities.
For example :
Harry was very afraid in general of abandonment. Having a family, people who care about him, is rather a big deal at first and he is not used to it. Sometimes, the fear that all of that will disappear – that every bit of happiness he ever got will vanish – reappears. Harry can also doubts his abilities as a leader when he thinks about it too much – people look up to him, and he feels the presure of being the one taking decisions – even if most of the time he subconsciously takes the lead without thinking about it twice.
Hermione has or had insecurities about her appearance. Enough to lead her to modify her teeth magically, at least. She is also a crippled perfectionnist who cannot even fathom the idea of failure. I think she defines herself mostly by her intelligence, and deep down believes that she has to help fixing others’ problems and get them right otherwise they might reject her – because she would reject herself if she were a failure.
Dumbledore had insecurities. Concerning his past, concerning his relationship with Grindelwald, concerning the role he had in his family, concerning his relationship with power.
Even the Weasley twins, I think, could display a behaviour betraying some insecurities from time to time. For example when Ron got appointed as prefect, and Molly fussed over him with exclamations such as ‘A prefect ! That’s everyone in the family !’, they became downright scornful towards Ron, and really indignant (‘What are Fred and I, next-door neighbours ?’). I believe they were afraid of being forgotten, of being only seen as the clowns that no one take seriously, of being rejected because they were not taking the same path as the others. So, they acted as if they did not care at all, as if being a prefect was a disgrace… to push the hurt out of their hearts. But they did care.
And for other characters it run a lot deeper. It affects their self-esteem so much that it prevents them from achieving their potential and it leads them to downplay their feelings, run away from others or even have a self-destructive behaviour. Everything affects them, hurts them, or on the contrary gives them endless and irrepressible joy. They can misunderstand the most obvious behaviours, have self-depreciating tendencies, and take a lot of things personally.
I identify four characters with these characteristics : Remus Lupin, Hagrid, Neville and Ron.
Lupin’s insecurity comes, obviously, from his condition as a werewolf. He is sure – and sadly was proven right a lot of times by the wizarding society – that once people are aware of his situation they will reject him. Because he is a monster. A monster that should have nothing to do with other people. Most of the time composed, it hurts to see so much self-loathing when Remus removes the layers of pretended chillness and confidence (for example the scene in the Shriecking Shack). And it leads him to run away from everything that might make him happy (Tonks, his baby) because he believes he doesn’t deserve them and worst, would spoil them by his mere presence.
Hagrid is a character who always seems extremely baffled when people believe in him or even love him (Dumbledore, the Trio…). He hasn’t got any real confidence and once the joyful giddiness wears off, he is unsure, and it takes one comment to destabilize him and makes him feel low and stupid (Umbridge, Draco Malfoy… and it’s worsened by the fact that Hagrid is one of the most naive characters in the whole series). And from the moment he feels unworthy of the things he has (for example as a teacher), he won’t try for a long time to take up on those things (the classes in third year who became extremely boring after one class). He also has this unhealthy habit of drinking to drown his problems.
Neville is maybe the most obvious character to identify as deeply insecure for the majority of readers, simply because he is the most open about it in the first four books and is identified as having no real self-esteem by the narrative itself. Honestly, as much as I like Augusta Longbottom, it is quite obvious this deep insecurity comes from the way Neville was raised – in comparison of his father. He was expected to be just as talented as his father, and it crippled him – literally. In the first four books, Neville believes he has nothing to do in Gryffindor, and barely anything to do at Hogwarts at all (the second book when he buys gadgets to protect himself from the “Monster” because he is persuaded he is nearly a Squib is heartwrenching). Snape worsened considerably his insecurity. Fortunately, Neville began to find his own path through Herbology classes, and got indulged by Pomona Sprout. For Neville, it was the first step on the way of a normal self-esteem. It gave him enough confidence to try in other subjects. Dumbledore’s Army has really been a blessing, since at the moment Neville got the determination to improve in DADA to revenge his parents, he had an entire group to help him, with much needed patience. I believe that, by the time of the Deathly Hallows, Neville became a leader (he took this responsibility after Harry and Ron left) who was chill, knew what he had to do and didn’t take the time to doubt himself. I am sure that, in the end, he found his path; and this horrible insecurity he had as a child vanished. But it made him an excellent teacher. The best teachers are the ones who know what failure feels like.
Ron… *deep sigh* From the moment you meet him, you know he feels insecure, you know he is afraid of being “the lesser one”, “the useless one”, “the untalented one” – once again notice that this insecurity comes from comparisons. In the first four books, Ron, despite the fact that he is painfully honest and open, which makes him vulnerable, acts as if he doesn’t care. Honestly I believe that on some matters Ron is great to make people forget he is there, but one look at him and you would know how he feels. But, on the contrary of Neville, his insecurity, that people should have helped dealing with, worsened with time. Because no adult really indulged him. Because he became more and more transparent in comparison of his ‘bright and shiny’ siblings, of Harry the hero and Hermione the genius. Because he began to believe that his feelings didn’t matter, that his abilities – what abilities ?- didn’t matter, that he didn’t matter. Notice that he became more open about it as well, as if he were stating facts (ex : “I resign, I’m pathetic”). Ron is oversensitive and takes everything personally, especially in OOTP and in HPB. Ron, like Neville, is deeply affected by both praise and critics. Has self-depreciating tendencies. By the time of DH, it was urgent to do something. With the locket… it became too late to ever make it disappear.
Yes. Hear me. Too late.
The locket tortured Ron with his insecurity (follow my tag #torture if you want to learn more about my interpretation, that I will defend to death). Repeated him endlessly that he was worthless, useless, that everything negative he thought about himself were true, that no one cared about him and no one would care if he died (cf The Silver Doe). To the point that he believed in the middle of DH that he was nothing.
To me it looks dangerously like the beforehand of a suicide.
I am baffled that people actually believe that Ron’s lack of self-esteem disappeared with the Silver Doe.
No. This chapter just made Ron confront it rather than brush it to the side. That’s all.
Ron came face-to-face with his insecurities and won. Once.
I don’t believe he’ll ever be truly over his insecurities. It was much too late.
Ron
doesn’t have anyone, besides Harry, willing to vouch for his abilities;
no one to cheer him on when he’s feeling discouraged, no one to praise
him when he does something right.
And Ron is the type of
person that needs this sort of reassurance to function. There’s a reason
why he’s so good at reacting to danger – he doesn’t have time to
second-guess himself. When he’s threatened he observes his surroundings
and take immediate action, which doesn’t give time for his insecurities
and doubts to play against him. That’s why he was rubbish at Quidditch
at first – he had time to rationalize, to psych himself into a
near-panic over his belief that he’s not good enough.
And
it shows so much through the entire series. Whenever Ron achieves
something, whenever he’s given time to shine, he gets “punished” for it.
Quidditch? He has to endure an entire year of humiliation – some
teenagers have been driven to suicide for less than that – before he’s
allowed to triumph and even then JKR makes sure he bumps his head on the
door’s lintel to ridicule him. Saving Harry’s life, destroying the
Horcrux and having his soul laid bare to be psychologically and
emotionally tortured, with his best mate for an audience? People choose
to forget that, instead dogpiling on the fact that he left (and
according to them, shouldn’t have come back – enjoy your drowned Harry
and your frosted Hermione then).
Ron has so
many things to him, so many powerful feelings and emotions and
possibilities. Hell, the scars he’s given at the Ministry of Magic
wouldn’t be out-of-place in some awesome superhero’s backstory. He
demonstrates frighteningly powerful magic at times, too. He walks on the
perfect line of comedy and tragedy, being this character that brings so
much joy and light to what would otherwise be a duo of dull cynists,
but can’t see how bright he shines and how much he’s needed, and is
downright forced to believe he’s not good enough, never was,
never will be… all that, because people don’t ever pay attention to him;
all that, because despite his charisma and his wit, people notice
famous Harry Potter and “brilliant” Hermione Granger more; all that
because he’s cast in all these enormous shadows and his own author
decided he’d never have any sunlight.
Ron
sacrificed his feelings of self-worth and the very, very little
self-esteem he had for Harry and Hermione’s sakes, and this sacrifice
isn’t even seen by most readers of the HP series, and it just… breaks my
heart.
So, Rowan Blanchard liked some really biphobic tweets that I’ll post screenshots below. I’ve also heard she liked a tweet asking how to say fag in Italian, but I looked at her likes for 5 or 10 minutes and didn’t see it. That’s not saying she didn’t, I just can’t find it. I also remember her tweeting an ‘apology’ that was basically ‘I’m queer, so I can’t be wrong about this’ but, again, I don’t have screenshots of it, so if you want to take my word for it, you can, but if you don’t, then don’t.
Emma Watson has worn several revealing outfits, which isn’t bad at all, if she hadn’t shamed people for the same thing previously and never apologized.
Here are the screenshots about both:
I’m not saying people shouldn’t like them, and both have done good things, but I just don’t think they’re pillars of good feminism, ya know?
Thoughts, everyone? Please keep things calm; I don’t want to inadvertently start a comment war over here.
okay but instead of harry & ron asking the patil twins to the yule ball they go with each other
they’re dancing pretty goofily during most of the ball & even talking with hermione & viktor a little & suddenly the champions have to dance, right?
it’s a slow song. one about love & friendship. well ron starts leading harry in the dance & things get a little awkward because it wasn’t like before when they were a few feet apart. they’re up really close now.
but it doesn’t really feel all that weird to ron. harry’s his best mate & it feels right to dance with him like this. & then it hits him. maybe he doesn’t really see harry as his best mate at all. maybe harry is meant to be something more than that.
so he leans in and gives harry a gentle kiss.
ron thinks harry is gonna push him away but he doesn’t. harry just wraps his arms around ron and kisses him back.
and that’s how ron became harry’s first love.
(sorry if it’s not too good, i’m not much of a writer)
That was brilliant, @whatifdestiel! Thank you so much for submitting! Loved it all!
Not gonna lie, though; I can’t help but wonder what Hermione’s reaction would have been. Jealousy, tears, setting a flock of birds on Harry?..
i might have to come up with something for how hermione reacts when she finds out that ron & harry were together. i personally think she’d be jealous but at the same time understand because “same harry! ron is way too amazing for his own good! it’s a wonder he doesn’t have a line of people waiting to date him!”
“because they know how you get when you are jealous hermione! they’d never dare touch ron with you around! you’d kill them!”
I’d like to think that it would turn out that way.
So I wanna talk about this, because it requires a really delicate touch. “What happens with Hermione” is a big challenge when writing Rarry, because it touches on three things that are really important to me in fic.
Most generally, it’s important that characters be entitled to totally justified feelings. In particular, if Ron and Hermione are already together, Hermione is absolutely entitled to be absolutely furious if Ron leaves her for Harry. I read a fic recently that did that really, really well. (She… didn’t actually try to kill them, which made her much more sympathetic.) She had justified angry feelings, but moved past them, and her friendship recovered. Which brings me to the second important thing.
Unless that’s the whole point of your fic, I feel like it’s super important not to break up the Golden Trio. Like, the trio’s love for one another is one of the core things that’s good about Harry Potter to me. Just like you shouldn’t make Ron a useless jerk-off to make Harmonie happen, you shouldn’t make Hermione an evil harpy to make Rarry happen. Furthermore, in the same way you shouldn’t play up how much Harry and Hermione being together breaks Ron’s heart, you shouldn’t play up how much Harry and Ron being together breaks Hermione’s heart. It’s just mean.
And that brings me to the third thing that’s kind of a big deal here–it’s never okay to bash a character for getting in the way of your ship. Because of the history of fanfic, it’s especially important not to bash a female character for getting in the way of a M/M ship. It’s important even when the female character is a cardboard cutout love interest created to highlight the male character’s heterosexuality; it’s even more important with a female character as important and well-developed as Hermione.
So… how is Hermione likely to react to Ron and Harry getting together before Ron and Hermione have articulated their feelings for one another? I don’t think she would react nearly as negatively as she did with Lavender, for a couple of reasons. First, Lavender is someone Hermione actively dislikes, and is an example of a kind of performative femininity that Hermione despises. Hermione is actively insulted when (in her perception) Ron chooses someone like Lavender over her, because Hermione feels very strongly that Lavender’s life choices are inferior to her own. On the other hand, Harry is someone she likes and admires; she knows what someone might see in him, even if she doesn’t. And second, Harry’s a boy. Hermione is very likely to see Ron and Harry getting together as less a “doesn’t like me” thing and more a “doesn’t like girls” thing. (It was the 90s. As someone who was a bi teenager in the 90s, that really wasn’t on the menu, especially for guys. Bi guys were gay but trying to hide it, bi girls were straight but trying to be cool. You still get this kind of biphobic narrative, but it was nearly universal back then. A teenage girl whose crush got a boyfriend would not be thinking “well maybe he’s bi,” she’d he thinking, “he’s gay and I never had a chance.”)
The right analogy for Hermione’s reaction might be, imagine you baked someone a cake and they wouldn’t eat it. You’d be a little annoyed if they picked a well-cooked steak instead, but the steak is still good, and it looks like they just didn’t want dessert. On the other hand, you’d be completely furious if they turned down your cake in favor of a twinkie.
Reblogging for @lytefoot’s (as usual) incredible and spot-on commentary
This turned out to be super long so i’m keeping it in sections:
Lady characters in m/m ships:
Your commentary reminds me of a Dean/Ron fic that I’ve read. It was pretty good but I disliked how they treated Romione and Hermione. They made Ron and Hermione break up because Ron realised he was gay after the war.
I’m sorry…but no. Poor Hermione. I can’t wish that on Hermione. I just can’t. It’s cruel. It’s heartbreaking. Can you imagine crushing on a guy for – let’s go with – five years; seeing how he’s willing to face his phobia for you, fight for you, and get detentions for you, and when you finally pluck up the courage to show your feelings for him, you learn that he’s not even interested in you?
Yeah, that would hurt. That would hurt a lot.
Hermione was heartbroken, and I was glad that the author didn’t blame it on her, but there was something else that bothered me. After Ron came out of the closet, he didn’t give a shit about her. Ending Ron and Hermione’s relationship after the war is bad enough, but I can’t imagine Ron Weasley not caring about Hermione even if he weren’t her husband. I can’t imagine losing Romione even if Ron ended up with someone else. I would’ve appreciated any hints that Ron cared about Hermione. I would’ve liked it if we were told that Ron did love Hermione, even if if he didn’t love her like that. All we got was:
Ron: I realised i was totally into guys and ditched hermione right after we got together lmao
Ron: yeah she was kinda pissed and that ruined our friendship hahahaha
Ron: do i miss her?
Ron: do I feel bad for hurting her?
Ron: will I mention her again?
Ron: …….
Ron: nah
Ron: *goes back to thinking about Dean’s arse*
[Later that day]
Ron: *speaking to a bloke who ditched his girlfriend for another bloke* Lol been there, done that. Chill buddy it’s not a big deal. Hermione got over it
Ron: *starts dreaming about Dean’s arse again*
*sigh* Seriously, guys. Don’t do this in your m/m fanfics. You need to learn how to treat the lady characters, and their friendship with the guys with respect. And no, not turning them into sl*ts or rapists /= respect. Sorry I don’t make the rules.
Ronarry and Romione:
ANYWAY, that’s why I’ve made it clear that Ronarry is an AU ship for me, which is awesome because creativity is awesome. I accept it in these scenarios:
A world where Hermione doesn’t exist. This is the easiest scenario. Is it bad? It’s born out of my love for Romione and respect for Hermione. No Hermione, no broken heart.
A world where Hermione had a small crush on Ron but Ron made it clear early on (say, around third or fourth year) that he was gay and in love with Harry. Yeah, Hermione was disappointed but not too upset or jealous. Her crush did not grow because she learned pretty quickly that she never had a chance. The golden trio’s friendship didn’t deteriorate at all, and Hermione became the captain of the Ron/Harry ship. Everyone was happy.
And…that’s it.
No, really. That’s it.
It physically hurts me to ship Ron with someone else, when Hermione is right there and in love with him. Canonically speaking, Hermione loves Ron (even if she has a funny way of showing it), therefore, I can’t seperate them after they’ve gotten together. Disregarding Romione doesn’t upset me because I think Ron can only be validated by Hermione’s love, or because I’m projecting myself into Hermione. It upsets me because I know how much these kids suffered with their feelings of inadequacy, insecurity and jealousy. If I end their relationship, it feels like I’m flushing their efforts down a toilet. It would mean that their efforts meant nothing. Hermione didn’t kiss Ron Weasley in the middle of the war for us to break them up in our fan fiction. Ron Weasley didn’t scream for Hermione in Malfoy Manor for us to break them up in our fan fiction. (Lol, this was supposed to be about Ronarry. How the hell did I start talking about Romione?)
I’m not interested in reading or writing any headcanons where Hermione gets super heartbroken and has to deal with her jealousy regarding the Ronarry. That kinda stuff gives me a headache. It makes me feel guilty for shipping Ron/Harry. Unlike most m/m shippers, I don’t have a fetish for gay smut. I don’t ship Ron/Harry because I have an irrational hatred for a female character for “getting in the way” of a non-canon ship. I ship Ron/Harry for the fluff and the Ronarry cuteness. While I love me some Hermione suffering, she doesn’t deserve to suffer because of Ron/Harry. Realistically speaking, if Ron and Hermione became a couple and then he broke up with her to be with Harry, things would be a little awkward between them. Hermione would feel like shit. Ron would always feel guilty for breaking her heart. And Harry would feel guilty because he’d feel like he stole Ron from Hermione. Ugh, now I have a headache.
Yeah, I don’t want that stuff. Don’t give me the “Hermione and Ron date and then he leaves her for another dude” stuff. I don’t want it.
Female character/Hermione bashing:
I’ve never read a Ronarry fic with Hermione bashing and I doubt I will. Most Harry Potter fans do have respect for Hermione and Hermione bashing is very rare in the HP fandom (And before any Hermione stan jumps at me, no, saying that Hermione makes mistakes does not mean bashing.) However, the reason Ron fans get angry when Ron is demonized or reduced to a useless jerk is because it’s out of character. The whole point of Ron’s arc in the books was that he wasn’t useless and he was very important, so you can excuse us for getting angry when you kill his character in your shitty fic. Adding to that, Abusive!Ron who physically hurts Hermione is out of character. As much as it hurts me to say this, abusive!Hermione who physically hurts Ron is canon. Hermione who can be a little evil is canon. (Please don’t hate me for saying this!)
I personally wouldn’t read a Ronarry fic that has Evil!Hermione, because it’s lazy writing. On the other hand, I understand that it may seem tempting for the fic writer to turn Hermione into a harpy, so Ron could seek comfort in somebody’s else’s arms. We have canonical evidence of Hermione losing her shit when Ron chose someone who wasn’t her, but it’s also easy, lazy, cheap, and lacks creativity, but many writers take the easy route nowadays. Again, I don’t support it because I refuse to bash the lady character just so two boys can be together. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: if you need to demonize character A to show how bad they are for character B and how good character C is, then you’re doing it wrong.
Biphobia/Acephobia:
@lytefoot I have a question. You’re saying that if Ron dated Harry, instead of Hermione, she wouldn’t be too upset, because she’d think that he was gay. However, what if Ron were bi or ace or pan instead of gay? Would Hermione be upset then? Say that Ron started dating Harry and Hermione asked him if we were gay. And Ron said something like, “No, I like girls too.” Would Hermione be upset then? Or would she convince herself that Ron was actually gay? Does this Hermione have internalized biphobia? I have a headache again.
Ginny Weasley:
Another reason why Ronarry is an AU ship for me. Because Ginny Weasley. I think it’s douchey to date someone that your sibling has a crush on. 🙂
Lavender Brown:
I’ve always thought that Hermione was angry because Ron dated someone who wasn’t her. The “Hermione gets angry when Ron dates someone who isn’t a good option in her eyes” brings new issues surrounding Hermione’s character and it doesn’t really put her in a positive light. It shows that she has a superiority complex and has put herself on a pedestal. It shows that Hermione thinks that girls who are feminine or not nerdy like her are bad. And I doubt Hermione would’ve been pleased if Ron had dated a smart girl, instead. Actually, that would’ve made things worse because Hermione would’ve thought that she wasn’t smart enough. If you’re right about this, then I like to think that the whole Lavender business was a learning experience for her, and taught her not to underestimate girls (or people in general) who are different from her.
@ronandhappiness Really nice analysis, and I agree with a lot of that. Please forgive me if I miss a couple points, I’m super brain-fried right now.
Re: AU. I agree, Ronarry is an AU ship for me, too, but a fun one. I’m super happy with Ron and Harry being platonic soulmates and dudes who are capable of touching each other even though they don’t wanna bone. That’s kinda my jam. But Ronarry is so frickin cute.
If I’m going to do Ronarry–or any Harry ship, really, but especially Ronarry–I tone down just how much Ginny was into Harry: much more a “I had such a crush when I was 11” and much less… the kind of Hinny dynamic I love so much in the canon universe. And, I mean, Luna is right there.
And I absolutely tone down how much Hermione is into Ron, too, for Ronarry. That’s a harder one, because canon!Hermione was never really interested in anyone else. (I mean, Krum, but that felt absolutely like “going to a dance with you is fun” and not “I’m totes in love with you” to me.) While I can absolutely imagine Hermione being someone who can be happy single, and it feels bad to pair her off with some rando just to avoid guilt about taking Ron away from her, I also feel guilty about trying to take Ron away from her and have an intense urge to pair her off with some rando.
If you’re pre-HBP (and going canon divergence), you’ve got some plausible deniability on both the Ginny and the Hermione fronts. If you’re post-war by several years, you can pull, “We broke up somehow!” Although dating your sister’s ex is still maybe a little bit bad form.
Or, there’s also @vivithefolle ’s OT3 without the NoTP, but that’s hard, too, given the personalities involved. Harry and Hermione are both so insecure (at least in relationships) and so jealous that it’s hard to get them to share while keeping them in character.
(I do think that concern and respect for characters’ canon partners is an important thing to do when writing fic, just because it’s an important part of keeping them in character.)
Re: disappearing Hermione. Yeah, even if Ron and Hermione have no romantic interest in each other, they clearly care for each other deeply and have an important friendship. They hang out with just each other easily as often as Harry hangs out with just Ron, and that isn’t all mutual pining.
In one respect, that’s almost a genre feature of ship fic. If your fic is about this one relationship, the characters’ other relationships tend to fade into the background. But it’s annoying specifically in HP fic, specifically when it’s one of the trio being disappeared, because they’re, you know, important.
Re: biphobia. I definitely think the knee jerk assumption of “oh, so he’s gay,” is likely to temper Hermione’s immediate emotional reaction to Ron/Harry. If she’s calmed down enough to be actually having a conversation about Ron’s sexuality with him, that immediate emotional reaction is already passed.
I’d say it’s really likely that canon!Hermione has at least some attitudes imbibed from her culture. I tend to write her attitudes as more “fair for the time” than “conservative,” but she definitely has some unexamined notions. I’d expect her to come around fairly quickly, especially an older Hermione who’s already had a little practice in examining her views, but I’d expect her to make an assumptions.
(I have written [not with Ronarry] Hermione saying to Harry, “Okay, but if you like both, wouldn’t it be less trouble to just stick with girls?” To which Harry responded with something like, “I don’t know, Hermione, wouldn’t it have been less trouble if you’d just told Ron you liked him and spared us sixth year?” But I digress.)
Re: Hermione’s canon jealousy. I’m not really saying that setting birds on them is outside the range of in-character responses from Hermione, if Ron and Harry get together. She might well do that. If you want the key drama of your story to be how the Trio reconcile after that upset, it’s a viable option.
Rather, I’m trying to make a case that being more chill is also in character for her. Mostly because every time I see a Ronarry post around, at least one reply is something like, “Oh no, Hermione’s gonna try to kill them!” And it’s just… we don’t have to play it that way.
Re: Lavender Brown. Oh, absolutely Hermione feels superior to Lavender! She also feels that Ron is dating Lavender just to spite her! This is most obvious in the fact that her counter-move is to go out with McLaggan, who is a caricature of masculinity in the same way that (in Hermione’s view) Lavender is a caricature of femininity. I don’t think she learned that lesson in sixth year, either. I don’t think she learned that lesson until after the war.
I’m not sure you need to apologize for that! This was about Hermione, after all, and I’m the one who mentioned Ginny. 🙂
Exactly! I would never underestimate platonic Ronarry because it’s so freaking cute. I think it’s important to show that two boys can be affectionate around each other (be cuddly and give each other kisses and stuff) and not be gay. So many men hesitate before being affectionate around their male friends because they’re afraid that people would think that they’re gay. J.K Rowling is definitely heteronormative but she deserves credit for writing Ron/Harry the way she did. It’s arguably the best friendship in the series and a beautiful representation of a healthy friendship between two boys.
Honestly, not only does loving Ronarry as an AU ship prevent me from sleeping on their platonic relationship, it also prevents me from turning into a delusional shipper (which is my fear.) While I love making shitposts and headcanons about Ron and Harry having a crush on each other, I think it’s good to remember that they’re just a figment of my imagination. I don’t want our fandom to turn into those Dreary and H*rmione shippers, and insist that there’s proof that Ron and Harry were in love with each other, and everyone else (including the author) was too blind to see it.
Fair enough. I guess it’s easier to address Hinny than the Romione. The Romione is more complicated than Hinny. And yes, Luna’s right there! Maybe we feel guilty about Hermione because we don’t ship Hermione with anyone who isn’t Ron? :’D
Rather, I’m trying to make a case that being more chill is also in character for her. Mostly because every time I see a Ronarry post around, at least one reply is something like, “Oh no, Hermione’s gonna try to kill them!” And it’s just… we don’t have to play it that way.
I agree. Like I’ve said, it’s bad to turn a female character into a psycho just to put two men together, but I was just pointing out that we’re overestimating Hermione if we expect her to be completely chill about Ron and Harry being a couple. Especially if you consider that Canon!Hermione is Ronsexual. Hermione reacting like, “I will kill you both!!! Ron Weasley is Hermione Granger’s property!!!” is ridiculous but Hermione turning into a yaoi fangirl and being all “Oh my god yay!!! OTP!! Go gays! Time to write Ronarry smut” is even more ridiculous. (You’d be surprised how often I’ve seen jokes about Ronarry being a fetish for Hermione. Jokes that I’ve admittedly reblogged as well. 😳)
She also feels that Ron is dating Lavender just to spite her!
Ugh don’t even get me started on this! Why would Hermione think that? Oh, nvm. According to Hermione, “We’re allowed to bring guests” somehow means “I’m in love you and I want to have your babies.” *sigh* Seriously, if Ron wanted to spite Hermione, he would’ve dated someone like Malfoy or Pansy, but he dated the first girl who showed interest in him. Thus, proving that the Lavender thing was more about his own insecurities than anything to do with “being spiteful to Hermione.”
“I don’t think she learned that lesson in sixth year, either. I don’t think she learned that lesson until after the war.”
Really? 😦 Alright then. I’m trying not to digress but how do you address this in your fics?
(I have written [not with Ronarry] Hermione saying to Harry, “Okay, but if you like both, wouldn’t it be less trouble to just stick with girls?” To which Harry responded with something like, “I don’t know, Hermione, wouldn’t it have been less trouble if you’d just told Ron you liked him and spared us sixth year?” But I digress.)
Oh snap.
Which fic is this?! I’d like to read it. 🙂
From last to first.
The bit of dialog is in a fic I’m not going to finish because everything I try to do with it gets weird and awful–but I am gonna reuse that line at some point. I write a fair amount of “Harry makes questionable life choices” fic, and it never gets to a point where it’s fit for human consumption. (Hermione’s real objection is not to the fact that Harry is crushing on a dude per se.) (Other choice Hermione lines include, “Merlin, Harry, if you’re going to self-destruct, can’t you just take drugs like a normal person?”)
As for Hermione’s relationship with femininity, I think it’s an ongoing struggle for her. There isn’t one big, dramatic incident that hits her like a bolt of lightning with, oh, maybe performative femininity isn’t all bad. Mostly it’s an ongoing process of growing up and mellowing, and realizing that other people’s way of doing things isn’t bad, it’s just different from hers. There is an entire giant essay in here that I’ve started to write six times just now and realized I’m too frazzled to adequately organize; another time. Suffice to say that Hermione’s sense of superiority to Those Other Girls is covering some substantial insecurities, and as she finds herself in a place where she feels more secure, she doesn’t need that sense of superiority as much.
I didn’t mean to suggest Hermione is right that Ron was dating Lavender to spite her. (I don’t think you took it that way? But wanted to make sure.) I do think she realized she was wrong about that sixth year, at least.
“Hermione is a giant yaoi fangirl for Ronarry” is really funny, though! Have you seen the comic where the Cup is showing Hermione Harry and Ron making out, and Hermione’s like, “No, wait, let them finish!”? It’s funny. It’s partially funny because it’s seriously out of character. I also am not a fan of “Hermione is the Encyclopedia of Gayness,” going around explaining everyone else’s sexuality to them.
(Unless you mean the actual Encyclopedia of Gayness, which is a good paraphrase of the title of a book one of my former roommates actually had. So Hermione occasionally pops up at inopportune times to say, “Remember to use generous amounts of water-based lube!” or “If you get something stuck in any of your orifices, just go to the emergency room and be honest! They don’t judge and they’ve seen it before!” This is also a comic trope, however.)
Although, I do sometimes think having Hermione be the captain of the Ronarry ship is a good way to deal with her feelings for Ron–she started to develop a crush on Ron but then saw how much Ron and Harry were into each other and realized she didn’t have a chance. This is firmly in AU territory, but it’s canon-compatible through maybe fifth year. (If one is gonna do school-age Ronarry I feel like it needs to diverge from canon before HBP.)
Re delusional shipping: I feel like a lot of shipping discourse can get really muddled, because “I ship it” could mean any of the following:
“I think it should have been canon/endgame,” or
“I think that an alternate timeline in which they got together could be a good one,” or
“I think that in an alternate universe where all the details of their lives that mean they should never be together are removed, their basic personalities could make for a good relationship,” or even
“While I don’t think the canon characters make a good couple, I enjoy the fan content associated with this ship and/or enjoy creating fan content for this ship.”
I can think of couples that fall into all four of these categories for me, and it feels weird that in discourse we describe them all the same way.
I know you didn’t mean that but I was just getting angry at Hermione. Not you! 🙂
I would love to read that essay! Your essays are on point. Most Hermione fics don’t really address her flaws (shocker) but I would love to read a fic or a meta where Hermione’s relationship with femininity is explored.
As a matter of fact, I was talking about that comic 😂😂 You’re right! It was really OOC. And it was funny but ehhh. That’s how you start fetishizing m/m couples. You start making harmless jokes, and then you start making top and bottom jokes, and before you know it, you’re talking about their sex lives and that’s it. If that happens to Ronarry, I’d probably leave the fandom.
I can see Hermione being the Encyclopedia of Gayness. It’s really in character for her, but I’m sure Ron and Harry would tell her to back off. (I’ve read Romione fics where Hermione does research and plans everything before her first time with Ron. I find them more in character compared to the “Ron and Hermione randomly have sex because they are super horny” fics.)
Yes! I don’t want to get influenced by the militant Ronarry shippers and that’s why I want to make it clear where I stand. I’m definitely category #2. I feel like people who are category #1 for non-canon ships (especially ships like Dr*mione and H*rmione) are delusional. While #3 and #4 aren’t exactly ships, because when you change the characters’ personalities, they are OCs. 🙂
Btw, if I’m annoying you, then let me know! And we’ve (well, I have) hijacked @headcanonsandmore’s post (I was trying not to but it happened), and I apologize for that. 🙂
@ronandhappiness Don’t apologise! I love the way this thread has gone! 🙂
I simply don’t think she’s a good actor. To me, her acting reached a peak in POA, and never really improved. From OOTP, she just seemed to stop caring, and this showed in her portrayal of Hermione Granger. I have yet to understand why everyone made such a big deal out her acting, considering that (in my opinion, at least) pretty much every other young actor had considerably more acting range. Heck, Rupert Grint and Bonnie Wright had their characters butchered by the films, and they still did a brilliant job. Emma Watson got so many lines, but never seemed to put much effort into it after the fourth film (occasional scenes notwithstanding).
From what I’ve gathered from intersectional feminists, her feminist is seen as exclusionary towards women from poor backgrounds, as well as non-white women. Several years back, she referred to a Beyonce video as ‘fetishistic’, but then posed virtually-topless later on and referred to herself doing that as empowerment. From what I’ve gathered, this was highly hypocritical of her. In an interview where someone said that they thought the Beyonce video was empowering, Watson backtracked and said she felt the same way too (touching on another issue I have with her; the fact that she backtracks on issues so much that she comes across as insincere most of the time) . Although this was several years ago, and it’s possible that she realised her mistake.
According to many people who’ve worked alongside her or with her on projects, she has a reputation of being difficult to work with. I don’t mean in the old misogynistic stand-in phrase for ‘she’s a women who has opinions’, but in the sense that she is apparently often very rude to people (especially if they are on a lower level of power than her).
According to extras on the set of the HP films, she was repeatedly rude towards them (with numerous accounts displaying her saying to other lead actors “why are you talking to them? They’re only extras”). Even going back to the first few films, she was often rude to people on-set.
It’s been pointed out by many that she apparently developed ‘diva’-ish tendencies on the set of the last few HP films. According to David Yates, she would get into arguments with him because she hated doing more than one take, believing she had done it perfect the first time round. Yates said on the matter (and I’m paraphrasing-at-best here) ‘We’re paying you all this money to act in these films; the least you can do is try your best.’. This led her to acquire the nickname ‘One-take Watson’.
Also, according to people on-set, the film-makers ended up having to change production schedules around to suit Watson. On several occasions, they had to cancel filming on the day of shooting, simply because she had commitments elsewhere that she didn’t want to re-schedule. Even the lead of the franchise Daniel Radcliffe didn’t do this (at least, not that I’ve ever heard of).
Now granted, it’s been theorised that she has some social-anxiety issues going on, which could make it difficult for her to establish good relationships with people. I have some social anxiety myself, so I can sympathise. But after over a decade of her apparently being rude to so many people, it does make you wonder whether she’s actually made any efforts to change her behaviour.
Watson has done some good things; she’s made feminism more appealing to young women, and has shown public support for charitable causes, as well as being openly supportive of trans people.
I personally consider her to be problematic. I don’t hate her; I just don’t think much of her. That’s just my opinion, though.
Thanks for the ask, anon; hope that cleared things up!
okay but instead of harry & ron asking the patil twins to the yule ball they go with each other
they’re dancing pretty goofily during most of the ball & even talking with hermione & viktor a little & suddenly the champions have to dance, right?
it’s a slow song. one about love & friendship. well ron starts leading harry in the dance & things get a little awkward because it wasn’t like before when they were a few feet apart. they’re up really close now.
but it doesn’t really feel all that weird to ron. harry’s his best mate & it feels right to dance with him like this. & then it hits him. maybe he doesn’t really see harry as his best mate at all. maybe harry is meant to be something more than that.
so he leans in and gives harry a gentle kiss.
ron thinks harry is gonna push him away but he doesn’t. harry just wraps his arms around ron and kisses him back.
and that’s how ron became harry’s first love.
(sorry if it’s not too good, i’m not much of a writer)
That was brilliant, @whatifdestiel! Thank you so much for submitting! Loved it all!
Not gonna lie, though; I can’t help but wonder what Hermione’s reaction would have been. Jealousy, tears, setting a flock of birds on Harry?..
i might have to come up with something for how hermione reacts when she finds out that ron & harry were together. i personally think she’d be jealous but at the same time understand because “same harry! ron is way too amazing for his own good! it’s a wonder he doesn’t have a line of people waiting to date him!”
“because they know how you get when you are jealous hermione! they’d never dare touch ron with you around! you’d kill them!”
I’d like to think that it would turn out that way.
So I wanna talk about this, because it requires a really delicate touch. “What happens with Hermione” is a big challenge when writing Rarry, because it touches on three things that are really important to me in fic.
Most generally, it’s important that characters be entitled to totally justified feelings. In particular, if Ron and Hermione are already together, Hermione is absolutely entitled to be absolutely furious if Ron leaves her for Harry. I read a fic recently that did that really, really well. (She… didn’t actually try to kill them, which made her much more sympathetic.) She had justified angry feelings, but moved past them, and her friendship recovered. Which brings me to the second important thing.
Unless that’s the whole point of your fic, I feel like it’s super important not to break up the Golden Trio. Like, the trio’s love for one another is one of the core things that’s good about Harry Potter to me. Just like you shouldn’t make Ron a useless jerk-off to make Harmonie happen, you shouldn’t make Hermione an evil harpy to make Rarry happen. Furthermore, in the same way you shouldn’t play up how much Harry and Hermione being together breaks Ron’s heart, you shouldn’t play up how much Harry and Ron being together breaks Hermione’s heart. It’s just mean.
And that brings me to the third thing that’s kind of a big deal here–it’s never okay to bash a character for getting in the way of your ship. Because of the history of fanfic, it’s especially important not to bash a female character for getting in the way of a M/M ship. It’s important even when the female character is a cardboard cutout love interest created to highlight the male character’s heterosexuality; it’s even more important with a female character as important and well-developed as Hermione.
So… how is Hermione likely to react to Ron and Harry getting together before Ron and Hermione have articulated their feelings for one another? I don’t think she would react nearly as negatively as she did with Lavender, for a couple of reasons. First, Lavender is someone Hermione actively dislikes, and is an example of a kind of performative femininity that Hermione despises. Hermione is actively insulted when (in her perception) Ron chooses someone like Lavender over her, because Hermione feels very strongly that Lavender’s life choices are inferior to her own. On the other hand, Harry is someone she likes and admires; she knows what someone might see in him, even if she doesn’t. And second, Harry’s a boy. Hermione is very likely to see Ron and Harry getting together as less a “doesn’t like me” thing and more a “doesn’t like girls” thing. (It was the 90s. As someone who was a bi teenager in the 90s, that really wasn’t on the menu, especially for guys. Bi guys were gay but trying to hide it, bi girls were straight but trying to be cool. You still get this kind of biphobic narrative, but it was nearly universal back then. A teenage girl whose crush got a boyfriend would not be thinking “well maybe he’s bi,” she’d he thinking, “he’s gay and I never had a chance.”)
The right analogy for Hermione’s reaction might be, imagine you baked someone a cake and they wouldn’t eat it. You’d be a little annoyed if they picked a well-cooked steak instead, but the steak is still good, and it looks like they just didn’t want dessert. On the other hand, you’d be completely furious if they turned down your cake in favor of a twinkie.
Reblogging for @lytefoot’s (as usual) incredible and spot-on commentary
This turned out to be super long so i’m keeping it in sections:
Lady characters in m/m ships:
Your commentary reminds me of a Dean/Ron fic that I’ve read. It was pretty good but I disliked how they treated Romione and Hermione. They made Ron and Hermione break up because Ron realised he was gay after the war.
I’m sorry…but no. Poor Hermione. I can’t wish that on Hermione. I just can’t. It’s cruel. It’s heartbreaking. Can you imagine crushing on a guy for – let’s go with – five years; seeing how he’s willing to face his phobia for you, fight for you, and get detentions for you, and when you finally pluck up the courage to show your feelings for him, you learn that he’s not even interested in you?
Yeah, that would hurt. That would hurt a lot.
Hermione was heartbroken, and I was glad that the author didn’t blame it on her, but there was something else that bothered me. After Ron came out of the closet, he didn’t give a shit about her. Ending Ron and Hermione’s relationship after the war is bad enough, but I can’t imagine Ron Weasley not caring about Hermione even if he weren’t her husband. I can’t imagine losing Romione even if Ron ended up with someone else. I would’ve appreciated any hints that Ron cared about Hermione. I would’ve liked it if we were told that Ron did love Hermione, even if if he didn’t love her like that. All we got was:
Ron: I realised i was totally into guys and ditched hermione right after we got together lmao
Ron: yeah she was kinda pissed and that ruined our friendship hahahaha
Ron: do i miss her?
Ron: do I feel bad for hurting her?
Ron: will I mention her again?
Ron: …….
Ron: nah
Ron: *goes back to thinking about Dean’s arse*
[Later that day]
Ron: *speaking to a bloke who ditched his girlfriend for another bloke* Lol been there, done that. Chill buddy it’s not a big deal. Hermione got over it
Ron: *starts dreaming about Dean’s arse again*
*sigh* Seriously, guys. Don’t do this in your m/m fanfics. You need to learn how to treat the lady characters, and their friendship with the guys with respect. And no, not turning them into sl*ts or rapists /= respect. Sorry I don’t make the rules.
Ronarry and Romione:
ANYWAY, that’s why I’ve made it clear that Ronarry is an AU ship for me, which is awesome because creativity is awesome. I accept it in these scenarios:
A world where Hermione doesn’t exist. This is the easiest scenario. Is it bad? It’s born out of my love for Romione and respect for Hermione. No Hermione, no broken heart.
A world where Hermione had a small crush on Ron but Ron made it clear early on (say, around third or fourth year) that he was gay and in love with Harry. Yeah, Hermione was disappointed but not too upset or jealous. Her crush did not grow because she learned pretty quickly that she never had a chance. The golden trio’s friendship didn’t deteriorate at all, and Hermione became the captain of the Ron/Harry ship. Everyone was happy.
And…that’s it.
No, really. That’s it.
It physically hurts me to ship Ron with someone else, when Hermione is right there and in love with him. Canonically speaking, Hermione loves Ron (even if she has a funny way of showing it), therefore, I can’t seperate them after they’ve gotten together. Disregarding Romione doesn’t upset me because I think Ron can only be validated by Hermione’s love, or because I’m projecting myself into Hermione. It upsets me because I know how much these kids suffered with their feelings of inadequacy, insecurity and jealousy. If I end their relationship, it feels like I’m flushing their efforts down a toilet. It would mean that their efforts meant nothing. Hermione didn’t kiss Ron Weasley in the middle of the war for us to break them up in our fan fiction. Ron Weasley didn’t scream for Hermione in Malfoy Manor for us to break them up in our fan fiction. (Lol, this was supposed to be about Ronarry. How the hell did I start talking about Romione?)
I’m not interested in reading or writing any headcanons where Hermione gets super heartbroken and has to deal with her jealousy regarding the Ronarry. That kinda stuff gives me a headache. It makes me feel guilty for shipping Ron/Harry. Unlike most m/m shippers, I don’t have a fetish for gay smut. I don’t ship Ron/Harry because I have an irrational hatred for a female character for “getting in the way” of a non-canon ship. I ship Ron/Harry for the fluff and the Ronarry cuteness. While I love me some Hermione suffering, she doesn’t deserve to suffer because of Ron/Harry. Realistically speaking, if Ron and Hermione became a couple and then he broke up with her to be with Harry, things would be a little awkward between them. Hermione would feel like shit. Ron would always feel guilty for breaking her heart. And Harry would feel guilty because he’d feel like he stole Ron from Hermione. Ugh, now I have a headache.
Yeah, I don’t want that stuff. Don’t give me the “Hermione and Ron date and then he leaves her for another dude” stuff. I don’t want it.
Female character/Hermione bashing:
I’ve never read a Ronarry fic with Hermione bashing and I doubt I will. Most Harry Potter fans do have respect for Hermione and Hermione bashing is very rare in the HP fandom (And before any Hermione stan jumps at me, no, saying that Hermione makes mistakes does not mean bashing.) However, the reason Ron fans get angry when Ron is demonized or reduced to a useless jerk is because it’s out of character. The whole point of Ron’s arc in the books was that he wasn’t useless and he was very important, so you can excuse us for getting angry when you kill his character in your shitty fic. Adding to that, Abusive!Ron who physically hurts Hermione is out of character. As much as it hurts me to say this, abusive!Hermione who physically hurts Ron is canon. Hermione who can be a little evil is canon. (Please don’t hate me for saying this!)
I personally wouldn’t read a Ronarry fic that has Evil!Hermione, because it’s lazy writing. On the other hand, I understand that it may seem tempting for the fic writer to turn Hermione into a harpy, so Ron could seek comfort in somebody’s else’s arms. We have canonical evidence of Hermione losing her shit when Ron chose someone who wasn’t her, but it’s also easy, lazy, cheap, and lacks creativity, but many writers take the easy route nowadays. Again, I don’t support it because I refuse to bash the lady character just so two boys can be together. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: if you need to demonize character A to show how bad they are for character B and how good character C is, then you’re doing it wrong.
Biphobia/Acephobia:
@lytefoot I have a question. You’re saying that if Ron dated Harry, instead of Hermione, she wouldn’t be too upset, because she’d think that he was gay. However, what if Ron were bi or ace or pan instead of gay? Would Hermione be upset then? Say that Ron started dating Harry and Hermione asked him if we were gay. And Ron said something like, “No, I like girls too.” Would Hermione be upset then? Or would she convince herself that Ron was actually gay? Does this Hermione have internalized biphobia? I have a headache again.
Ginny Weasley:
Another reason why Ronarry is an AU ship for me. Because Ginny Weasley. I think it’s douchey to date someone that your sibling has a crush on. 🙂
Lavender Brown:
I’ve always thought that Hermione was angry because Ron dated someone who wasn’t her. The “Hermione gets angry when Ron dates someone who isn’t a good option in her eyes” brings new issues surrounding Hermione’s character and it doesn’t really put her in a positive light. It shows that she has a superiority complex and has put herself on a pedestal. It shows that Hermione thinks that girls who are feminine or not nerdy like her are bad. And I doubt Hermione would’ve been pleased if Ron had dated a smart girl, instead. Actually, that would’ve made things worse because Hermione would’ve thought that she wasn’t smart enough. If you’re right about this, then I like to think that the whole Lavender business was a learning experience for her, and taught her not to underestimate girls (or people in general) who are different from her.
@ronandhappiness Really nice analysis, and I agree with a lot of that. Please forgive me if I miss a couple points, I’m super brain-fried right now.
Re: AU. I agree, Ronarry is an AU ship for me, too, but a fun one. I’m super happy with Ron and Harry being platonic soulmates and dudes who are capable of touching each other even though they don’t wanna bone. That’s kinda my jam. But Ronarry is so frickin cute.
If I’m going to do Ronarry–or any Harry ship, really, but especially Ronarry–I tone down just how much Ginny was into Harry: much more a “I had such a crush when I was 11” and much less… the kind of Hinny dynamic I love so much in the canon universe. And, I mean, Luna is right there.
And I absolutely tone down how much Hermione is into Ron, too, for Ronarry. That’s a harder one, because canon!Hermione was never really interested in anyone else. (I mean, Krum, but that felt absolutely like “going to a dance with you is fun” and not “I’m totes in love with you” to me.) While I can absolutely imagine Hermione being someone who can be happy single, and it feels bad to pair her off with some rando just to avoid guilt about taking Ron away from her, I also feel guilty about trying to take Ron away from her and have an intense urge to pair her off with some rando.
If you’re pre-HBP (and going canon divergence), you’ve got some plausible deniability on both the Ginny and the Hermione fronts. If you’re post-war by several years, you can pull, “We broke up somehow!” Although dating your sister’s ex is still maybe a little bit bad form.
Or, there’s also @vivithefolle ’s OT3 without the NoTP, but that’s hard, too, given the personalities involved. Harry and Hermione are both so insecure (at least in relationships) and so jealous that it’s hard to get them to share while keeping them in character.
(I do think that concern and respect for characters’ canon partners is an important thing to do when writing fic, just because it’s an important part of keeping them in character.)
Re: disappearing Hermione. Yeah, even if Ron and Hermione have no romantic interest in each other, they clearly care for each other deeply and have an important friendship. They hang out with just each other easily as often as Harry hangs out with just Ron, and that isn’t all mutual pining.
In one respect, that’s almost a genre feature of ship fic. If your fic is about this one relationship, the characters’ other relationships tend to fade into the background. But it’s annoying specifically in HP fic, specifically when it’s one of the trio being disappeared, because they’re, you know, important.
Re: biphobia. I definitely think the knee jerk assumption of “oh, so he’s gay,” is likely to temper Hermione’s immediate emotional reaction to Ron/Harry. If she’s calmed down enough to be actually having a conversation about Ron’s sexuality with him, that immediate emotional reaction is already passed.
I’d say it’s really likely that canon!Hermione has at least some attitudes imbibed from her culture. I tend to write her attitudes as more “fair for the time” than “conservative,” but she definitely has some unexamined notions. I’d expect her to come around fairly quickly, especially an older Hermione who’s already had a little practice in examining her views, but I’d expect her to make an assumptions.
(I have written [not with Ronarry] Hermione saying to Harry, “Okay, but if you like both, wouldn’t it be less trouble to just stick with girls?” To which Harry responded with something like, “I don’t know, Hermione, wouldn’t it have been less trouble if you’d just told Ron you liked him and spared us sixth year?” But I digress.)
Re: Hermione’s canon jealousy. I’m not really saying that setting birds on them is outside the range of in-character responses from Hermione, if Ron and Harry get together. She might well do that. If you want the key drama of your story to be how the Trio reconcile after that upset, it’s a viable option.
Rather, I’m trying to make a case that being more chill is also in character for her. Mostly because every time I see a Ronarry post around, at least one reply is something like, “Oh no, Hermione’s gonna try to kill them!” And it’s just… we don’t have to play it that way.
Re: Lavender Brown. Oh, absolutely Hermione feels superior to Lavender! She also feels that Ron is dating Lavender just to spite her! This is most obvious in the fact that her counter-move is to go out with McLaggan, who is a caricature of masculinity in the same way that (in Hermione’s view) Lavender is a caricature of femininity. I don’t think she learned that lesson in sixth year, either. I don’t think she learned that lesson until after the war.
I’m not sure you need to apologize for that! This was about Hermione, after all, and I’m the one who mentioned Ginny. 🙂
Exactly! I would never underestimate platonic Ronarry because it’s so freaking cute. I think it’s important to show that two boys can be affectionate around each other (be cuddly and give each other kisses and stuff) and not be gay. So many men hesitate before being affectionate around their male friends because they’re afraid that people would think that they’re gay. J.K Rowling is definitely heteronormative but she deserves credit for writing Ron/Harry the way she did. It’s arguably the best friendship in the series and a beautiful representation of a healthy friendship between two boys.
Honestly, not only does loving Ronarry as an AU ship prevent me from sleeping on their platonic relationship, it also prevents me from turning into a delusional shipper (which is my fear.) While I love making shitposts and headcanons about Ron and Harry having a crush on each other, I think it’s good to remember that they’re just a figment of my imagination. I don’t want our fandom to turn into those Dreary and H*rmione shippers, and insist that there’s proof that Ron and Harry were in love with each other, and everyone else (including the author) was too blind to see it.
Fair enough. I guess it’s easier to address Hinny than the Romione. The Romione is more complicated than Hinny. And yes, Luna’s right there! Maybe we feel guilty about Hermione because we don’t ship Hermione with anyone who isn’t Ron? :’D
Rather, I’m trying to make a case that being more chill is also in character for her. Mostly because every time I see a Ronarry post around, at least one reply is something like, “Oh no, Hermione’s gonna try to kill them!” And it’s just… we don’t have to play it that way.
I agree. Like I’ve said, it’s bad to turn a female character into a psycho just to put two men together, but I was just pointing out that we’re overestimating Hermione if we expect her to be completely chill about Ron and Harry being a couple. Especially if you consider that Canon!Hermione is Ronsexual. Hermione reacting like, “I will kill you both!!! Ron Weasley is Hermione Granger’s property!!!” is ridiculous but Hermione turning into a yaoi fangirl and being all “Oh my god yay!!! OTP!! Go gays! Time to write Ronarry smut” is even more ridiculous. (You’d be surprised how often I’ve seen jokes about Ronarry being a fetish for Hermione. Jokes that I’ve admittedly reblogged as well. 😳)
She also feels that Ron is dating Lavender just to spite her!
Ugh don’t even get me started on this! Why would Hermione think that? Oh, nvm. According to Hermione, “We’re allowed to bring guests” somehow means “I’m in love you and I want to have your babies.” *sigh* Seriously, if Ron wanted to spite Hermione, he would’ve dated someone like Malfoy or Pansy, but he dated the first girl who showed interest in him. Thus, proving that the Lavender thing was more about his own insecurities than anything to do with “being spiteful to Hermione.”
“I don’t think she learned that lesson in sixth year, either. I don’t think she learned that lesson until after the war.”
Really? 😦 Alright then. I’m trying not to digress but how do you address this in your fics?
(I have written [not with Ronarry] Hermione saying to Harry, “Okay, but if you like both, wouldn’t it be less trouble to just stick with girls?” To which Harry responded with something like, “I don’t know, Hermione, wouldn’t it have been less trouble if you’d just told Ron you liked him and spared us sixth year?” But I digress.)
Oh snap.
Which fic is this?! I’d like to read it. 🙂
Loving all of this thread!
Also, I’m definitely guilty of making (and reblogging) those ‘Hermione has a thing about Rarry/Harron’ posts. Which, looking back, doesn’t really make a lot of sense. As much as it’s funny to write about, it’s very unlikely Hermione would find the prospect of her little-sort-of-brother snogged her ginger crush to be an attractive one.
“Your brother is gorgeous and I want to marry him.”
— Hermione Granger and Ginny Weasley, to each other at various points.
Okay, so it is canon that Hermione gave Ginny advice on how to get closer to Harry. Now I’m imagining these two girls hanging out and gossiping about the dense boys they’re crushing on and it’s a joy. We don’t talk enough about Ginny and Hermione’s friendship.
True; their friendship doesn’t get talked about enough (especially since Hermione has virtually no constant female friends aside from Ginny for most of the series). Although I don’t think Hermione has any right to call Ron ‘dense’.
No, she doesn’t. But she would, and Ginny would agree with her.
On the other hand, Harry entirely deserves it, at least where other people’s feelings are concerned.
Agreed. I tend to notice that in fics, and (while I personally find it a little unkind) it is something Hermione would do in the pre-Lavender period. And Ginny would agree with her, since (to everyone-else) Hermione’s crush on Ron was obvious, and Ginny (like virtually everyone) didn’t really understand Ron’s insecurities about being ‘least loved’ by everyone (including Hermione).
Most of my post-canon character development fics tend to evolve out of this theme. As well as being a form of stress relief that doesn’t involve me yelling angrily ‘he’s not dense, you jerks; he just can’t imagine why anyone could love him!’ at fics where Ginny and Hermione talk about Ron like that.
Sometimes I think I love Ron too much…
Harry (as much as I like him) does deserve that moniker more than Ron. I mean, he completely forgets about Ginny’s possession by Riddle’s diary, despite being the one to save her from said-possession in the first place. Harry was far less aware of other’s feelings than Ron was. At least Ron had the excuse that his negative-five-billion-self-esteem prevented him from believing Hermione could fancy him.
But, hey, they’re all teenagers during the series. Not to mention it being the 90s, and Rowling tending to write along the lines of ‘Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus’ (which I’ve personally always had issue with).
okay but instead of harry & ron asking the patil twins to the yule ball they go with each other
they’re dancing pretty goofily during most of the ball & even talking with hermione & viktor a little & suddenly the champions have to dance, right?
it’s a slow song. one about love & friendship. well ron starts leading harry in the dance & things get a little awkward because it wasn’t like before when they were a few feet apart. they’re up really close now.
but it doesn’t really feel all that weird to ron. harry’s his best mate & it feels right to dance with him like this. & then it hits him. maybe he doesn’t really see harry as his best mate at all. maybe harry is meant to be something more than that.
so he leans in and gives harry a gentle kiss.
ron thinks harry is gonna push him away but he doesn’t. harry just wraps his arms around ron and kisses him back.
and that’s how ron became harry’s first love.
(sorry if it’s not too good, i’m not much of a writer)
That was brilliant, @whatifdestiel! Thank you so much for submitting! Loved it all!
Not gonna lie, though; I can’t help but wonder what Hermione’s reaction would have been. Jealousy, tears, setting a flock of birds on Harry?..
i might have to come up with something for how hermione reacts when she finds out that ron & harry were together. i personally think she’d be jealous but at the same time understand because “same harry! ron is way too amazing for his own good! it’s a wonder he doesn’t have a line of people waiting to date him!”
“because they know how you get when you are jealous hermione! they’d never dare touch ron with you around! you’d kill them!”
I’d like to think that it would turn out that way.
So I wanna talk about this, because it requires a really delicate touch. “What happens with Hermione” is a big challenge when writing Rarry, because it touches on three things that are really important to me in fic.
Most generally, it’s important that characters be entitled to totally justified feelings. In particular, if Ron and Hermione are already together, Hermione is absolutely entitled to be absolutely furious if Ron leaves her for Harry. I read a fic recently that did that really, really well. (She… didn’t actually try to kill them, which made her much more sympathetic.) She had justified angry feelings, but moved past them, and her friendship recovered. Which brings me to the second important thing.
Unless that’s the whole point of your fic, I feel like it’s super important not to break up the Golden Trio. Like, the trio’s love for one another is one of the core things that’s good about Harry Potter to me. Just like you shouldn’t make Ron a useless jerk-off to make Harmonie happen, you shouldn’t make Hermione an evil harpy to make Rarry happen. Furthermore, in the same way you shouldn’t play up how much Harry and Hermione being together breaks Ron’s heart, you shouldn’t play up how much Harry and Ron being together breaks Hermione’s heart. It’s just mean.
And that brings me to the third thing that’s kind of a big deal here–it’s never okay to bash a character for getting in the way of your ship. Because of the history of fanfic, it’s especially important not to bash a female character for getting in the way of a M/M ship. It’s important even when the female character is a cardboard cutout love interest created to highlight the male character’s heterosexuality; it’s even more important with a female character as important and well-developed as Hermione.
So… how is Hermione likely to react to Ron and Harry getting together before Ron and Hermione have articulated their feelings for one another? I don’t think she would react nearly as negatively as she did with Lavender, for a couple of reasons. First, Lavender is someone Hermione actively dislikes, and is an example of a kind of performative femininity that Hermione despises. Hermione is actively insulted when (in her perception) Ron chooses someone like Lavender over her, because Hermione feels very strongly that Lavender’s life choices are inferior to her own. On the other hand, Harry is someone she likes and admires; she knows what someone might see in him, even if she doesn’t. And second, Harry’s a boy. Hermione is very likely to see Ron and Harry getting together as less a “doesn’t like me” thing and more a “doesn’t like girls” thing. (It was the 90s. As someone who was a bi teenager in the 90s, that really wasn’t on the menu, especially for guys. Bi guys were gay but trying to hide it, bi girls were straight but trying to be cool. You still get this kind of biphobic narrative, but it was nearly universal back then. A teenage girl whose crush got a boyfriend would not be thinking “well maybe he’s bi,” she’d he thinking, “he’s gay and I never had a chance.”)
The right analogy for Hermione’s reaction might be, imagine you baked someone a cake and they wouldn’t eat it. You’d be a little annoyed if they picked a well-cooked steak instead, but the steak is still good, and it looks like they just didn’t want dessert. On the other hand, you’d be completely furious if they turned down your cake in favor of a twinkie.
Reblogging for @lytefoot’s (as usual) incredible and spot-on commentary
Lena Dunham and Taylor Swift are not role models. If you want to look up to feminist icons, I suggest Zendaya, Emma Watson & Rowan Blanchard.
From what I heard, Emma Watson isnt a good shining beacon for feminism either….
Yeah, Emma Watson is the girl who tried, but didn’t think. The corset thing was stupid.
I know I’m probably going to regret this, but… what corset thing? And please, no pictures.
She refused to wear a corset in the making of Beauty and the Beast because she felt it was her job as a feminist to something or other about patriarchal norms at the time. Corsets at the time were not considered sexy, but necessary because the skirts were extremely heavy and there is no way you would be able to survive a day in that costume without some kind of back support, also they functioned as a bra. She probably had back problems during the entire movie and the costuming department was probably just like “I told you so.”
Oooh, I see what you mean.
I have heard tales about this. I mean, I know I’m in no position to comment (being male), but that does seem rather… excessive of her to me.
Thanks for clearing that up, @slinkanorabundyblr and @chimeraculous!
People who deem Ron irredeemable and “unworthy” of Hermione (concerning his mistakes), only do it because they are passive readers who lack critical thinking. They need everything to be pointed out to them. They need all the “You’re the brightest witch of your age” and the “You’re amazing, you are” lines for Ron Weasley as well, because it’s impossible for them to love a character unless they’re told to. They’re unable to use their brains, and think outside the box. They bash Ron becausehis mistakes are acknowledged by the narrative. When Hermione messes up, it’s girl power. When Harry messes up, it’s fine because he has a lot on his plate (although, Harry does get called out when he messes up and sadly, Harry also gets a lot of hate.) When Ron messes up, he gets punished, humiliated, called out, and eventually, learns from his mistakes……which is a blessing in disguise tbh. It’s funny how Ron haters are so quick to point out his less than stellar moments, but forget about his character development. Lol, fuck them. I’d rather have a character who is punished for their mistakes, than a character whose mistakes are glorified.
Think about it. We dislike Umbridge because she gave Harry (and other students) scars. But Hermione? She essentially did the same thing and scarred Marietta as a form of punishment, without informing the DA about the consequences of betrayal. She did the same thing to Ron and “punished” him for going out with Lavender by attacking him with birds and giving him (temporary?) scars and cuts.
So why don’t people consider what Hermione did to the same extent as Umbridge? Oh, yeah. Because Ron didn’t burst into tears whenever Hermione hurt him emotionally or physically. Because people’s actions aren’t measured by the actions themselves but by the victim’s reactions. Because fuck J.K Rowling and her obvious favouritism for Hermione Granger.
Fair enough. Like I said, I probably wouldn’t watch it if she did do that. I get very squicky about seeing actors like that (especially female actors, since there’s the whole male gaze thing going on).
Headcanonsandmore 